Tuesday, May 12, 2009

Criminals and their Accomplices

In February of this year, Binyam Muhammed was released from Guantanamo after being held for six years without anything resembling due process, but experiencing several things resembling torture, including, according to one report: "Mr Mohamed’s genitals were sliced with a scalpel and other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding, the controversial technique of simulated drowning, “is very far down the list of things they did,” the official said."

Muhammed has been seeking justice in British courts, who have agreed that there is sufficient evidence that he was brutally tortured and he is also entitled to obtain evidence in the possession of the British government which detailed the CIA's treatment of him, with assistance from M16 officers.

The US government has threatened the British High Court not to release seven redacted paragraphs of their reports because they threaten "national security"- here defined as the ability of the internal state security apparatus to remain completely above the law.

You might wonder if the current administration would cut out the cancer left by the old administration, before the republic finally has be taken off life support. The short answer: No.

The Washington Times:
"The Obama administration says it may curtail Anglo-American intelligence sharing if the British High Court discloses new details of the treatment of a former Guantanamo detainee. A court filing from the British Foreign Office released recently includes a letter from the U.S. government, identified as the "Obama administration's communication."

...And what does the letter say?

The Letter Excerpts:
"If it is determined that [her majesty's government] is unable to protect information we provide to it, even if that inability is caused by your judicial system, we will necessarily have to review with the greatest care the sensitivity of information we can provide in the future... As a consequence, if foreign partners learn that information it has provided is publically disclosed, these foreign partners could take steps to withhold from the United Kingdom sensitive information that could be important to its safety and security."

Greenwald:
"In other words: if you let your courts describe how we tortured Mohamed -- even if your laws compel such disclosure -- we may purposely leave your citizens vulnerable to future terrorist attacks by withholding information we obtain about terrorist plots. Smith re-iterated to Lake what he told me last month: that the Obama administration's actions in issuing these threats in order to hide evidence of torture is itself a criminal act."

Let that sink in- the current administration is threatening the safety of an ally in order to cover up the criminal activities of the past administration, and in the process committing a criminal act itself. And thus, the toxins of torture continue seeping into the blood stream of the republic.

Thankfully, some people still find this sort of thing shocking and disheartening...

The British High Court ruling:
"Indeed we did not consider that a democracy governed by the rule of law would expect a court in another democracy to suppress a summary of the evidence contained in reports by its own officials or officials of another state where the evidence was relevant to allegations of torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment, politically embarassing though it may be."

Could we please redact the phrase: "governed by the rule of law"?

Update: And yesterday the Obama administration decided they're not going to release 44 pictures of detainee abuse after all. The reason? You guessed it: "the national security implications of such a release".

20 comments:

Holly said...

How is national security threatened by people knowing that the US tortures folks suspected of terrorist involvement?

The Pagan Temple said...

I think I'm starting to see through the fog here. I started to say if there was anything that was related to legitimate national security concerns all they had to do was black that part out, but I think there's more to it than that. There's probably some information this guy ended up revealing that they don't want to get out.

It could also be that he is continuing to provide information and they don't want to endanger what they would consider a valuable source, but I find it hard to fathom why the guy would do that for a bunch of people that took a razor to his nuts.

Oh well.

Rufus said...

Holly- this is quite the argument in the US right now, I'm afraid. The idea is that detailing torture threatens the country by revealing to future prisoners what could happen to them- even though all of these things are supposedly now illegal. Also it weakens the CIA in the off chance that someone is convicted, it takes certain methods off the table (which are supposedly off the table under Obama), as well as hurting its image in the world unnecessarily. Seriously. People are making this argument.

My point all along though has been that, by putting these things on the table, you make it unlikely that they ever will be taken off the table. Call me cynical, but I'm wondering if the administration isn't so intent on protecting the last administration on this subject because they want to use all of these neato methods themselves.

Patrick- I think that's wishful thinking. They released him without ever charging him of anything, which suggests to me that he turned out not to be much of an information source. I'd also be amazed if he was cooperating with the US authorities now that he's free in the UK.

If I had to wager money, especially given what the High Court has actually said about the redacted information, the sections were more concrete verifications of the use of methods considered to be torture, and therefore politically embarrassing. If there's an official report detailing the interrogation methods used on him, he could easily take the matter to court. Right now, he's just some guy who was held for six years and released without ever being charged of anything.

The Pagan Temple said...

There's also a chance there might be something in there that could implicate high-ranking Democratic politicians in the Justice Department. There's a controversy now over exactly how much did Nancy Pelosi know, and the implications seems to be, quite a lot if not everything. I am sure there are others besides just her. That could have something to do with these sudden changes of latitudes and attitudes.

Knowing Pelosi like I think I know her, it wouldn't surprise me too much if she wasn't the one wielding the razor.

Rufus said...

Well, it sounds like you might have some repressed S&M fantasies involving Nancy Pelosi...

Having said that, of course, a full investigation will most certainly show that there were Democrats who knew full well about the enshrining of things like rendition, wiretapping, illegal search and seizure, the suspension of habaeus corpus, and torture. We know this. They took part and should be held accountable along with the Republicans who took part.

My larger argument is a bit stronger though. As far as I can tell, the Obama administration has promised in public that these techniques will no longer be used, while making it clear in private that nobody will ever be held accountable for having authorized or used them. There's a disconnect there and liberals are trying to figure out what Obama could be thinking.

But, it's not really clear to me that they have any serious intention of dismantling this extra-legal apparatus now that they're in charge. By refusing to hold people accountable for breaking the law, you're saying that the law no longer counts, and that you'd like the option to break that law yourself in the future.

So, people who were okay with things like wiretapping, the suspension of habaeus corpus, torture, rendition, and so forth because they trust the government and, after all, it was a Republican in charge, should now consider the disconnect between what the Obama administration is saying and doing, and ask themselves if they're okay with this administration having all those powers at their disposal to use against people who they consider to be enemies.

Because it seems to me that the government is absolutely refusing to have a public debate about what powers agents of the government can or cannot have; and I think the implication is that the state can decide for us what powers they have outside of the law.

So, I'd say I'm probably more pessimistic than you on this one.

Rufus said...

One thing I should point out is that this report allegedly details abuse by British as well as US agents. Therefore, the British government saying, 'We'd like to release this information, but the US won't let us' is pretty convenient. However, the letter is public and makes clear the administration's opinion here. Summary: exactly the same as the last administration's opinion.

The Pagan Temple said...

It could just be that he is being honest when he says he wants to open a new chapter, but in doing so wants to turn the page. There is something to be said for not wanting government to get bogged down in partisan recriminations. He has things he wants to do and accomplish, and even though for the time being he doesn't need Republicans to do them, he would like to have as much bi-partisan support as he can get. It just looks better. Besides, I can guarantee he isn't always going to have the solid lock he has now. Even now, it is to his advantage to win Republican support in some areas where the Democratic Party in Congress might want to steamroll over him, as they are wont to do even to their own Presidents when they have the power.

On the other hand, it just came out that Obama has personally ordered his attorneys to object to any further release of prisoner photos. I'm not going to pretend to know what's going on, it's all theory. But I can guess that he's looking at this mess and seeing a big potential hornets nest.

Rufus said...

One argument against releasing this information is that it could cause massive blowback against the troops, in terms of world opinion and terrorist recruitment. I suspect that Obama is hearing exactly that from the joint chiefs of staff, for instance.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to this actually. But I have two disagreements:
1. The world will eventually find out what was done anyway- and as someone who has studied it, we're already talking about much worse than most people realize here.*
2. If we can't release information about prisoners who were tortured, then by the same token, we can't release prisoners who were tortured. This means that we either pay them off, hold them indefinitely, or kill them. Are we willing to do any of these? As a historian, it behooves me to note how often in history regimes that have tortured have eventually resorted to "disappearing" the people they tortured. I am absolutely terrified that this will be the final bit of information to come out of all of this. I still have hope that it won't be.

But, in my opinion, getting this all out in the open and accounting for it is the best way we have to return to the rule of law. And fighting the rule of law sends a pretty clear message to the rest of the world too.

As for bipartisanship, I do think any investigation needs to be conducted by a nonpartisan group. However, I would disagree with anyone who thought post-partisanship is a good reason to just keep walking.

The Pagan Temple said...

You mean bi-partisanship, don't you? Frankly, I'm not a big believer in it anyway. The two parties have different philosophies for a reason, so there's only so far you can legitimately go with it. It's good up to a point, but that's it. I was just saying what I think his reasoning might be.

I'm ambivalent about the whole deal, to tell you the truth. For one thing, while I don't believe in or condone actual torture, I can't listen to somebody talking about torture defined as keeping somebody up two or three hours past their bedtime without rolling my eyes.

When you get right down to it, just the act of keeping a person incarcerated can be defined as "torture" according to some of these people's criterion. As far as actually killing somebody, I have known of that happening with somebody who I think died of a heart attack while being water boarded. So, it has happened, but I have never heard any indications of actual murder being committed.

A lot of bad stuff happened in the beginning at Guantanamo. A US soldier was beaten so badly he suffered from seizures and had to be discharged. The beating happened to him in the course of a training exercise, and evidently the soldiers, who were also new recruits, trainees, thought the guy, who was from Kentucky, was really a Muslim terrorist. They were told he was, and that they should "interrogate" him.

They lit into him and kept going at him in a rage even after he shouted the safe word several times. Somebody somehow stopped them just short of beating the guy to death. I did a post about this way back when.

So it definitely has happened, but I think the training has changed things. Remember, this was shortly after 9/11, when everybody nerves were on edge and were pissed off royally, and these were new recruits, just itching to get their hands on some Muslim fanatics, which back in those days was anybody with a vaguely Middle Eastern accent.

Still, I'm sure even after all this time there are still some practices that have transpired that are ill-advised. I just don't know how far its gone, who all is involved, and what the justification for it was.

I think its worth noting however, and this is not to be construed as a defense of Bush, but nevertheless he and the CIA, who mainly seem to be the culprits in most of these matters, had strained relations, to say the least.

That's what makes this so murky in so many people's minds. It seems odd that two entities, in this case the Bush Administration or officials thereof, would be partners in crime with an agency with whom they did not get along, to put it lightly. That was a great lot of what the Plame incident was all about, in fact.

Plames name was leaked by Richard Armitage, a State Department official who along with Colin Powell was in heated disputes with the Cheney-Rumsfeld cabal. At the same time, Plames husband was a Kerry supporter and a long-time Democratic appointee, if I remember right. It will make you dizzy if you think too much about it. I sometimes wonder if all these people don't approach this stuff like they're playing some kind of damn chess game.

And that's just the problem. It's easy to see things from the outside looking in and think you've got the answers, but when you enter the ring you might see a whole different perspective. In Obama's case, he's in the unenviable position of being expected to act on what he learns, which may be quite a different set of circumstances from what he first imagined they were, and made campaign promises about.

Right is right and wrong is wrong, of course, but there are still so many variables to consider, so many unknown quantities, in considering a subject this potentially explosive, it's got to be like unexpectedly being doused with ice water. Or maybe gasoline.

clairev said...

Patrick, honestly, I don't mean this as an insult, but nobody's talking seriously about keeping someone up three hours past their bedtime. The only people who are using examples like that are right wing talk show hosts who have no interest whatsoever in knowing what went on. This is what you call a canard- it's a non-issue. It's changing the subject.

And, at some point, you should realize that the fact that you've never heard about anyone being beaten to death in US custody probably has to do with the fact that you've never looked into it. I wouldn't assume that it never happened just because they didn't mention it on the news sources you use.

Running it through wikipedia, I get these examples:
Dilawar, 22 year old taxi driver, beaten to death in Bagram detention facility:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_(torture_victim)

Abdul Wahid, killed in Bagram during questioning by blunt force trauma:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Wahid_(Bagram_captive)

Jamal Nasser, killed during captivity. Taken with soldiers who described being beaten for seventeen days, left outside in freezing temperatures after being doused with glacial meltwater, and having one toenail pulled out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Nasser

Habibullah, Afghan cleric, beaten to death by a method that interrogators had been told, incorrectly, was legal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habibullah

And the beat(ings) go on, and on, and on. You'll notice that nobody was ever charged for two of those deaths because it was impossible to tell "which of the hundreds of blows was fatal". Actually, nobody was charged for the majority of them.

How many homicides were there? I can't tell. The common estimate is that about twenty-some are verified and there are about 108 under investigation.

And the common factor? Interrogators had been told that what they were doing was now legal. And, indeed, the methods used are almost identical at locations around the world.

I mean, look, shit happens in war. We all know that. But, when you have some lawyer in DC telling these young soldiers that the Geneva conventions no longer apply and that things like: waterboarding, hypothermia, body blows, slamming into walls, tying people in painful positions for days on end, etc. etc. are now acceptable, a lot more shit is going to happen. This was not a failure of the brass, so much as a failure of Washington.

And that's who I think needs to go down- the lawyers and politicians who called for these things. I'm not as worried about the soldiers, frankly.

Okay, let's just assume that they've now put the kibosh on all of this. I'm okay with that. Maybe Obama is trying to find the middle road, as he does with everything else. I think he's being a wimp, but okay.

The reason that we still need an independent investigation into all of this that will finally air it out and clarify what is not acceptable is this- we're talking about things that the rest of the world considers torture and that we have considered torture since the founding of the country. We don't get to say that it's not torture when we do it. Or, if that's now our policy, we need to say to the world, clearly, "We can do whatever we want because we have more bombs than you do."

Again, the stuff we know is already a lot worse than "a few frat pranks" or "keeping them up past their bedtime". And, yes, airing it out will likely be painful. But this is how we will close that chapter and move on. It's how an adult would handle it. And I'm not sure that Obama is an adult.

The Pagan Temple said...

Clairey-

I don't really like the guy. I'm sure he's a fine person, as politicians go, but as a politician, he's not my type. I'm just trying to be fair and give him the benefit of the doubt, and engaging admittedly in a good deal of supposition as to his motivations in doing so.

Nor do I condone brutalizing anybody, though I admit I'm fine with it in what is obvious and provable emergency situations. I seriously doubt that any of the examples you've given here can qualify as an emergency need to diffuse a threat to thousands of lives. It's probably mostly guys that just want basic information that while it would be good and helpful to have, doesn't justify these kinds of extremes.

By the same token, never underestimate the ability of the Democratic Party here in America to make mountains out of molehills. They even objected to the use of injecting suspects with truth serum. I never could get the point of that. If there was a danger of an allergic reaction, then it's understandable. By the way, a simple blood test analysis would determine that much.

And I understand the point that truth serum (can't think of the actual name of it right now) can be easily resisted. But under the right guidance, by trained interrogators who know how to go about it, surely its worth a shot if there's a chance of getting the information you need to save the lives of civilians.

I mean, really, is this some kind of game, and we're supposed to worry about "cheating"? If the guy comes forth with some information, pay him if that's the problem, even if he does only come clean on truth serum. Then let him go, for all I care. One guy can only do so much damage. It would be worth it if we got something worthwhile out of him.

The keeping people up past their bedtime, may be an exaggeration for dramatic effect, but its not too far off the mark. It's sleep and sensory deprivation they are complaining about. Yes, it's uncomfortable, maybe a little nauseating, but it beats a bomb on a city bus.

I'm all for treating people with decency and respect, but when you're dealing with these kinds of people, once you learn for sure you have the right person that is, they should at least be subject to the same kinds of interrogation techniques a common murderer or rapist would be subjected to.

A lot of the past administrations critics don't agree with that, it seems. Yeah, you might make a case against water boarding and truth serum, but at least let's agree we have a right to ask them for more than their name, rank, and serial number.

Rufus said...

Hey, this is Rufus- I was using Claire's computer, so the last comment was actually from me.

Patrick, could you find me one article where the liberal writer says that they object solely to keeping prisoners up too late? I mean, I'm sure there are people out there making this case- and they would be the extreme. Just like I'm sure there are people out there making the case that we should kill every Arab we pick up and let God sort 'em out. But, again, that's the extreme. And one of the things that the media is great at is making every argument about one extreme view versus the other extreme view. Something like pro-wrestling.

However, you're not discussing this with the make-believe "liberal" who thinks that terrorists should be put up in the Ritz Carlton. We can argue about sleep and sensory deprivation, if that's more interesting, but I'm arguing about quite a bit more here than that.

You say that you think these people should be treated like rapists or murderers in jail would be. So, okay. Fine. We're both in total agreement about that. This is exactly how I think they should be treated. I have no problem with interrogating them until they crack in the same way that cops generally interrogate people. In fact, I think it would be a lot more reliable to get information through traditional interrogation methods. And I suspect that most interrogators would agree with that.

So, wake them up early, shine a light in their face, ask them the same questions over and over again until they crack. Do all the things that military interrogators have always done. Just don't torture them. And don't tell interrogators who have to make these decisions that "the gloves are off" and now the conventions against torture don't apply.

You say that they should be treated no better than prisoners in US jails are. Then you write:
"A lot of the past administrations critics don't agree with that, it seems." Well, it seems that way to you. I think this is totally incorrect. But, if you can find me a Democratic politician who is seriously arguing that prisoners picked up on the battlefield should be treated better than rapists and murderers being held in prisons are, I'd be happy to disagree with them.

I've never heard anyone even discuss truth serum, so I can't say what the issues with it might be. Is this what the talking heads are now debating? Given that nobody used truth serum, as far as I know, isn't this just changing the subject?

As for the bomb on the city bus scenario, I've said here repeatedly that I understand that someone in that situation might well torture the suspect. And they might be tried for that and found innocent due to extenuating circumstances. Fine. But go through that process- don't make torture the official policy. That's all people are asking for.

The ridiculous thing here is that most people are opposed to torture, and they support the same standards that the US military has always held itself too prior to this. So there's not really much debate here. No matter how the cable news stations want to spin it.

The Pagan Temple said...

The sodium pentathol, or "truth serum", was brou8ght up in the early days after 9/11. It was discussed for a very brief period of time, and it was dropped. I think the basic objection to it was that it was depriving them of their Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination. Which is why I said, fine, if we learn something that way, simply don't charge them, for that matter, pay them and let them go.

Anytime you hear objections to sleep deprivation, it's usually part of a package, one that typically includes water-boarding, sensory deprivation, and other such things.

I just want to find a sane middle-ground. I don't want to come across as some redneck savage that wants to "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out", but at the same time, the other extreme is as objectionable. I have to wonder if Dick Durbin and others like him understand how objectionable it is to hear American military compounds referred to as gulags. It's just over the top.

The really ironic thing is, I have an idea your typical Islmamist terrorist suspect would not consider Democrats to be doing them much of a favor by transferring them from Gitmo to Leavenworth.

Rufus said...

See, and I think the thing is that most people are about where you're at on it, including myself. There might be extremists out there on both sides. But I definitely believe that, given an open and public discussion on this, most Americans would agree with the most reasonable policies. Also, honestly, I don't think they'd be policies that far removed from what military investigators have always done.

And, no, I imagine that it wouldn't be a treat to be stuck in prison. But charge them, try them, and then put them in jail, or execute them if that's the sentence. Or let them go if there's nothing solid against them. But get it done. I think that's how most people think this should be handled. And again, I think most of us are moderates on this one, as we are on most issues.

Holly said...

Is anyone else frightened that the leaders of the "free world" are totally willing to do these things, despite having agreed that these are not things decent people do, despite having agree not to do them, despite having agreed that they generally do not work, despite openly criticizing and embargoing other nations for doing exactly these things, despite knowing that their own people can expect that and worse because of this practice?

Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

Rufus said...

Well, as the resident history geek, I should note that most of the nations of the free world have, at one time or another, resorted to these things. The French pretty much made torture their policy in Algeria, when they were dealing with an urban insurgency. The end result? Pretty much the entire population came to side with the insurgency and they had to leave. And then you had Churchill, who possibly authorized some use of torture during WWII. So these things are not unheard of.

What you never had before was a former VP who was so fucking stupid as to argue that the country should officially adopt the use of torture in times of stress because "it works" and incidentally that could remove his own ass from the fire.

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